Curse

JMadisonIV · Aug 10, 2005, 09:30 AM // 09:30

I am always looking for a pick-up group whenever I am not with my guild.

I am patient. I love talking strategy and builds before heading out. I like to appoint one Player as the point man, and follow his lead.

however, I do not want to group with anyone who comes into my group with the automatic mentality that if I am not in their guild then I am an idiot. that is just arrogant, just short of jackass-ish.

just take the Henchies and STFU.

the other thing I can't stand is the player who comes in and automatically starts barking orders and insulting people for no other reason than because they've played the game once already. we had one guy at Thunderhead Keep who spent the entire mission bitching about not having two monks, insulting everyone in the group, calling us "noobs" and refusing to help the group fight, because we didn't have two monks. he's likely one of those who assumes that everyone not wearing his guild cape is an idiot. I wish the group leader could kick people from groups during missions. ugh. mebbe we should be able to vote to kick people as a group.

we made it to Dagnar without him anyhow, but lost there because Jalis died.

I hate arrogant asses. I really do.

Lost · Aug 10, 2005, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMadisonIV

we had one guy at Thunderhead Keep who spent the entire mission bitching about not having two monks, insulting everyone in the group, calling us "noobs" and refusing to help the group fight, because we didn't have two monks

Your group should have went back to town immediately, dumped him, grabbed someone else, then start again. It is faster to dump bad players than to go through a long mission like that and then lose.

Personally, I think I have a reasonable set of standards for how I want players in my PUGs to behave. Unfortunately, few players understand these:

1. Everyone must understand that only the leader or some designated person is allowed to ping or draw on the compass map. (I will allow exceptions for extreme emergencies)

2. Not every red dot in the universe must be killed. And certainly they don't have to all be killed at the same time.

3. Never leave a mission group unless you see at the top the words "Return to Outpost". The only exceptions of course being power outage, some kind of family emergency, act of god, and obvious stuff like that.

4. Never break away from your party to wander alone somewhere or to aggro some other group.

5. Never aggro another group until your party is regenerated and finished with the previous battle.

6. Always attack the target that is called and never call a target unless you are the designated target caller.

7. Know your roles. If you are a healer or spell caster, don't tank.

8. The monk is not always at fault. Furthermore, monks do not have an unlimited energy supply and monks cannot heal 1000 life per second.

9. LISTEN TO THE TEAM LEADER. There can be only one leader, and if you are not it, shut up. (This one is broken the most)

There are probably more, but I'm tired. The vast majority of the above rules are broken by most players. This is why PUGs are bad.

Kabale · Aug 10, 2005, 09:54 AM // 09:54

PUGs have their moments though. Last night I had a very good time completing the 2 missions before Thunderhead Keep, and it was all for my first time. Mind you though, it was at 12pm-2am so most of the annoying kiddies had already gone to bed and we were left with I think people in the age range of 18+ judging by the mature conversations had before and after.

I love PUGs. And hate them. They kinda balance themselves out for me so I'm impartial as well. The best times I've had in this game is when I've been in a very successful PUG. But the frustrations of not being able to find a competent group for 2-3 hours is annoying.

My experience with henchies is that I couldn't do much with them as my warrior because they would just seem to die too quick. With my Monk, henchies are great as well (Desert onwards). But if I see a group looking for players to go to somewhere that I want to go as well, I won't hesitate to join the group (unless I see someone that is below level for that area...I hate that...).

Shadow_Avenger · Aug 10, 2005, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Bad luck is all I can say, I have finished the game with PuG twice, and there have only been 3 missiosn where it has taken more than 3 attempts. Two of them are in the desert.

*edit* Thats with N/E and R/M characters

DeadRaven · Aug 10, 2005, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Its totally random i think, i've joined certain groups and aced over missions. Its better to be with people who have done the mission. But they themselves have to be prepared to listen to others. As i've seen many just run out and get annhilated. Sometimes its better with hench. I've found that joining certain groups you just run out and breeze over missions. I hate it when you join someone asking to do a certain mission. Then they end up venturing the opposite direction "can we do this mission first" It wouldnt bother me if they had told me beforehand.

JMadisonIV · Aug 10, 2005, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost

Your group should have went back to town immediately, dumped him, grabbed someone else, then start again. It is faster to dump bad players than to go through a long mission like that and then lose.

Personally, I think I have a reasonable set of standards for how I want players in my PUGs to behave. Unfortunately, few players understand these:

1. Everyone must understand that only the leader or some designated person is allowed to ping or draw on the compass map. (I will allow exceptions for extreme emergencies)

2. Not every red dot in the universe must be killed. And certainly they don't have to all be killed at the same time.

3. Never leave a mission group unless you see at the top the words "Return to Outpost". The only exceptions of course being power outage, some kind of family emergency, act of god, and obvious stuff like that.

4. Never break away from your party to wander alone somewhere or to aggro some other group.

5. Never aggro another group until your party is regenerated and finished with the previous battle.

6. Always attack the target that is called and never call a target unless you are the designated target caller.

7. Know your roles. If you are a healer or spell caster, don't tank.

8. The monk is not always at fault. Furthermore, monks do not have an unlimited energy supply and monks cannot heal 1000 life per second.

9. LISTEN TO THE TEAM LEADER. There can be only one leader, and if you are not it, shut up. (This one is broken the most)

There are probably more, but I'm tired. The vast majority of the above rules are broken by most players. This is why PUGs are bad.

I would add to #7:

Know your BUILD. and make sure that everyone ELSE knows your build too.

I am a Mesmer/Warrior, but most of the time I am not built to be a full caster(though I can revert to Full Caster if needed). I am built as a Melee/Caster Hybrid(Illusion/Axes/Inspiration/FastCasting). I function quite well as a melee damage dealer and can tank "in a pinch". I carry things like Armor Boosting/Damage Reduction Stances(Physical/Elemental Resistance, Mantra of Flame/Frost, etc.), Melee-friendly Self Enchantments(Illusion of Weakness, Illusionary Weaponry) Interrupts(both Melee and spells)and Evasion Stances(Distortion) when I am in my defensive mode, and I carry Health Degen(Conjure Phantasm,Phantom Pain,etc.) and High-Damage Melee Attacks when I am in Damage-Dealing Mode.

I make it a point to let my group know this when I join. just a simple "I am Built for Melee, just FYI" is normally good enough.

we had a Mo/W in our group at thunderhead just a few minutes ago who was obviously not built for Healing as he was right in the thick of the fighting with us Melees, and we were depending on him to heal because he didn't tell us beforehand.

please let people know what KIND of (Insert Profession) you are. Otherwise we may just assume that you are one thing when you are really something else entirely.

Old Dood · Aug 10, 2005, 12:13 PM // 12:13

I did Thunderhead Keep last evening TWICE. The first time the PUG didn't listen to anyone. They died...then BLAMED me the Good Old Monk. It was depressing.

Then about an hour later I joined another PUG. It was Night & Day. I was stunned that they all said "Wait,Rest..." after any big fight. This to me is the key to any mission. No need to rush. You waste less time doing missions if you hold up for 15-30secs after each battle. I also am getting into the habit of calling all the spells I throw on people. I want them to see what I am doing for them. People do not realize how much you do Heal them. Be it Conditions,Hexes, etc. I was using Mend Aliment & Smite Hex religiously. With Divine Boon it works pretty darn good. Healing Breeze to buy a little time on that character. I would save Word of Healing for anyone lower then 50%. (I would try to wait till 30% to get the Full heal out of it. ) After we compleated the mission I was thanked by most of the group.

The tricky thing for me as a Healer at Thunderhead is the distance between the doors. I ran my buttocks off going back and forth while trying to keep an eye on the King. Only once did a Jade Bow make a bee line for the King. He made it to the bottom of the stairs and was killed.

Mithie · Aug 10, 2005, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Good and charismatic leadership can make a good group out of anything.

Infecta · Aug 10, 2005, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Thats true Mithie, but you also need good team players who will listen to that leader. Leader is useless if the team have all gone afk or refuse to use his strategy etc etc.

Kabale · Aug 10, 2005, 01:22 PM // 13:22

I'm really looking forward to trying the Thunderhead Keep again. Being a Dedicated Healer, this is for me (so far) the biggest challenge and a test of how good the build works in terms of energy management and timing of heals. Not to mention stamina for running back and forth

Great fun <3 my monk

Mithie · Aug 10, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infecta

Thats true Mithie, but you also need good team players who will listen to that leader. Leader is useless if the team have all gone afk or refuse to use his strategy etc etc.

Hehe that's why before you hit the enter mission button, you discuss a bit about the mission with your group. If there's a griefer or someone who's acting a bit immature or malicious, you can usually detect him/her right then and there, and boot them.

Getting a good, solid team together is half the mission.

Red Sonya · Aug 10, 2005, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuon

you guys are so full of yourselves

I totally agree with you here. Anyone who can come to a forum to post trash like the OP isn't any better than what they are saying others are. Part of the challenge of the game is playing with other players. Personally I do it all. I will get in pugs (pugs have gotten me rank 2 in HOH) and I will use henchies. Just depends on MY mood and not the players themselves. For you see I'm not trying to "rush the content". And that's the biggest problem I see with braggarts and those opposed to pugs. They are in such a hurry to get to the end, they forget to play the content, enjoy the socialism of the game and "laugh at mistakes". When you can learn to live outside of constant competition and play a game for entertainment, you'll get more out of it and the other people playing it as well.

Mithie · Aug 10, 2005, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

I totally agree with you here. Anyone who can come to a forum to post trash like the OP isn't any better than what they are saying others are. Part of the challenge of the game is playing with other players. Personally I do it all. I will get in pugs (pugs have gotten me rank 2 in HOH) and I will use henchies. Just depends on MY mood and not the players themselves. For you see I'm not trying to "rush the content". And that's the biggest problem I see with braggarts and those opposed to pugs. They are in such a hurry to get to the end, they forget to play the content, enjoy the socialism of the game and "laugh at mistakes". When you can learn to live outside of constant competition and play a game for entertainment, you'll get more out of it and the other people playing it as well.

Hear hear! I agree with you wholeheartedly. Even the occasional terrible player or immature kid adds flavor and spice to my gaming experience. The OP's quoted 90% statistic should be reversed; only 10% of the folks I group with seem to be immature or intentionally malicious, and usually I kick them before hitting the enter mission button.

Red Leader · Aug 10, 2005, 02:01 PM // 14:01

I disagree that the majority of people are junk. I think the majority of players are somewhere between good and passable. I find that for every four people in a group one is a problem and will result in the mission either being 10 times harder than it should or in outright failure in the mission. As groups get bigger (8 people for Underworld and later areas) the chance that you will get at least one mission-destroying player increases.

When that happens though I often see other players yelling "YOURE ALL IDIOTS." When in fact it is just the one guy ruining it. Thus the impression gets formed that everyone but you is an idiot, which as I stated in the beginning I think is untrue.

Personally I find PUGs extremely frustrating but for some reason I prefer to play with real people than henches. My tricks for getting a good group are:

1) Ask for experienced players. Theres no reason that should actually get experienced players but it does seem to more often than not.
2) I watch the local chat and will not accept or invite people who are spamming LFG, talking in all caps, or saying things like "I am the best warrior, invite me and do what I say and you cant lose."
3) I take my time forming the group, the lack of monks helps this. Impatient people will drop out and they are frequently problem people.
4) If were not in a coop mission and someone is ruining it and not listening to others tell him to stop I will run back to town and kick him and ask everyone else to stay. You will be amazed how much people appreciate that, as long as your not 90% done with the mission.
5) If were in a coop and I cant kick people and we are failing because of one or two guys I will simply ask everyone to remain in the group when we fail and that I will kick the problem people.
6) I never lay out blanket insults. If one person is the problem I dont call the whole party noobs or idiots. Often I dont even insult the problem person, just state to everyone that I will be kicking him when I get a chance.

These are far from infallible and they sometimes require several attempts at a mission to get a good group. So PUGs often frustrate me. But I find it better than henches and I like to see a group come together and smash everything in its path.

Gwenhywar · Aug 10, 2005, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van the Warrior

do you guys think the other human players not including yourself, your friends, your guild mates are just complete useless morons?

It's hard to form a decent PUG with that attitude ... In the beginning I also was thinking that everyone was an idiot, but now I have more or less learned how to pick people for a PUG, to form one that's working. For example if you *know* your team will need ward against melee for a mission, and noone of the 2 eles you have grouped doesn't even know where to get such spell - "KICK" and get a competent player without starting the mission and wasting your nerves. Simple.

There are lots of incompetent players, and there are lots of kids and lots of jerks out there, but but there is certainly a fair share of good and nice players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van the Warrior

(oh and dont suggest joining a guild because in most cases they arent that much better)

Mine is. Don't join guilds that recruit players with "will u join mi guild?" or "XXX GUILD RECRUITING!!! WE HAVE COOL CAPE AND HALL!!!", and don't judge all guilds by the example the 10 year olds set when recruiting into their guilds.

Ollj · Aug 10, 2005, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I still try to run a build for the tombs that uses one (primary) monk.
Somehow people flame me newbie it i want less than 3 monks in an 8 man team but they never bring any reasonable argument with it!

EVERYONE says 2-3 monks are ESSENTIAL to keep the team alive, i bring arguments to disprove that, we play, we die relatively quick most of the time (that alone should prove them wrong), and i still have to bring good arguments of using 1-2 monk ponly while YONE demands 2-3 monks without any argument!

ZenPali · Aug 10, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by aismailuk

my nose was put firmly out of joint hearing in the chat window: Monk 1 says to Monk 2 - I'll heal Warrior 1 and you heal Warrior 2!. Now, forgive me for being naive, but aren't healers supposed to be there to heal everyone?

There's a good reason to break up the work this way: Redundant (and useless) healing.

If you've got a protection monk and a healing monk, this isn't a problem, but with two healing monks you really need to break it up.

What ends up happening is a tank will end up losing 25% of health, then both monks rush a spell to start the healing process. The first monk to cast heals, with the second monk wasting energy healing the same player when he's already full, meanwhile a second player is losing energy and not being healed in a timely manner because both monks are over-healing the first player.

The way it should work is that one monk take the top half, the second monk take the bottom half, and any player who is under 50% health should be attended to by both monks.

Van the Warrior · Aug 11, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

i totally agree with those who replied that just because your a good leader doesnt mean you will have a good group and i totally agree that a good group depends on the other people to actually listen

Numa Pompilius · Aug 11, 2005, 12:41 AM // 00:41

I don't know, perhaps it's just me, but whenever I hear people say things like that all other players are idiots screwing up the missions for them, I wonder who the idiot screwing up the mission really is.

Also, it is rubbish that hench-teams are better than PUGs. Any random team with even just halfway decent players is worlds better than a hench team, as henches are always low-level and have no secondary class skills.

2_fingers · Aug 11, 2005, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Before pointing the finger at others, start first questioning if the fault lay with U.

Especially important if u have been playing a warrior all ur life and have never tried a monk. Try a monk, notice how ppl react to u, and how they abuse u for not having unlimited energy.

That being said, many times, henchies work so much better than humans - simply because they follow instructions. In the beginning, due to their low lvl and little life, they tend to suck. But once they reach yak's bend, things start to pick up considerably. In the dessert, with lina around, it SO EASY. Moreover, there are many misssions in the dessert u can either run/kill everyting in your path better with henchies than humans.

Humans = limited by what they think is possible, prone to emotional and rash outbursts.
Henchies = Limited by what YOU think is possible.

The only other ppl who can outperform ur henchies are good guildies - in my guild practically all of us know each other for years - friends before gw - we understand each others style of play and complement each other.

People who say that henchies suck are the same people who have not seriously tried them. Try thunderhead keep with henchies - at least after they patched it - PUGs suck at thunderhead keep because no one wants to listen and everyone wants to run to the gate. With henchies, the mission is easy to do. So easy, its shocking.

If u are stuck in a mission, try henchies, (*bring a res though) - u'd be suprised.